tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-874580216515087471.post7528171992019395935..comments2024-03-07T17:28:01.972+00:00Comments on Eurobishop: Letter from 15 bishops to those with concerns about women in the episcopateDavid Hamidhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/01483724916701076899noreply@blogger.comBlogger9125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-874580216515087471.post-86441216031343036212010-10-04T15:44:03.567+01:002010-10-04T15:44:03.567+01:00...while the world looks on and decides we are all......while the world looks on and decides we are all mad....Somewhere round abouthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11391426009807498307noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-874580216515087471.post-53658774695051486092010-08-29T16:45:00.659+01:002010-08-29T16:45:00.659+01:00What if we need women in the episcopate, but God&#...What if we need women in the episcopate, but God's answer, as we so often hear in sermons on prayer, is: "yes, but not yet"? Let us look at how we have comported ourselves since the advent of womens' ordination. How about the state of faith amongst our women clergy? <a href="http://trushare.com/87aug02/AU02MIND.htm" rel="nofollow">In 2002, only 53% of female clergy polled believed in the resurrection</a>. In some way, we are failing in our care for women clergy. Some dynamic is present which makes it difficult for them to believe in the resurrection, and other essential matters of faith. I would rather wish of any woman that she were confident in her faith, and serving in a lay capacity, than ordained and impoverished in faith. What of our laywomen in dedicated, active ministry? I have heard complaints, that since womens' ordination, they have more difficulty in being heard. I believe we are * all * implicated in a petty careerism amongst both sexes, and a general lack of faith amongst our women clergy (and also our male clergy, but to a lesser extent - I had hoped, upon introduction of womens' ordination, that this would build our faith, based on the women I knew in lay ministry). If consecrating women is a gift, is it not more than likely that this is a gift which is not for our time, at the moment? Would it not be better to study why we are bringing up our women in ministry with such a diminished faith? Are we not blindly making civil rights arguments and forgetting other essential aspects of faith? Would we not do better to begin consecrating women once we have figured out better how to treat our women priests in a manner which fosters faith rather than inhibiting it, and which also helps laywomens' ministry rather than curbing it? Is it possible that something is missing in our general theology, and our methods of training in faith?<br /><br />I write as one who has been helped by laywomens' ministry much more than the ministry of any ordained person, male or female.<br /><br />Note also: those clergy with a different notion of ordination from ourselves have a much more robust faith in the resurrection than the rest of us - Reform clergy post at 93%, Forward in Faith at 83%. Women And The Church (WATCH), Affirming Catholics, Modern Church People's Union, and Lesbian and Gay Christian Movement all post beneath 37% (36%, 35%, 25%, and 12% respectively). Should we not see those who we wish to expel as having a vital and vibrant faith, which hopefully could help the rest of our church learn to turn to our Risen Christ in faith and worship? Might they not have vital life resources which we need to better understand, though we disagree with them about ordination? Could it be that sticking together a while longer will be better off for us?<br /><br />Finally: would not our women be better off with these people of faith in our midst, rather than away from us?<br /><br />I have no doubt that the clergy associated with WATCH, Affirming Catholicism, MPCU, and LGCM are vigilant in their promotion of civil rights, which I believe is a natural consequence of our faith in the gospel. But I would hope that they would wish for themselves that it is possible to be liberally minded, and yet believe in a Risen Christ. My own hope is that the Anglican Communion will, one day, be a bright beacon of people who are liberally minded, yet also people of faith in Christ; and show a way for exercising the gifts of the mind which God gave all of us, to those churches that are in need of our example. But we are very far from this goal indeed. We are, instead, largely civil rights activists whose impoverished notion of "Christ" is little more than our political commitments. In an era when other churches are coming together in profound ecumenical understanding, we have let our own theological divisions so undermine our unity that we tend neglect the most simple basics of theology which are at the base of all Trinitarian churches.Jamesnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-874580216515087471.post-90883780100946742502010-08-16T19:12:40.916+01:002010-08-16T19:12:40.916+01:00Seems like an election campaign!
Unity of the Chu...Seems like an election campaign!<br /><br />Unity of the Church, the Body of Christ, is what I fervently pray for and even voiced this wish to Cardinal Kasper in Rome. That last agonising prayer in Gethsemane "with sweat as drops of blood" "that they all may be ONE" is seared into my heart. Yet we lacerate that Body with ever more division, sometimes "breathing hate" like Saul before his conversion. To my simple mind, Traditionalists were those who refused to accept Jesus´ Message of the need for change in their way of thinking, plotted to destroy Him, to guard their laws and dogmas. The Spirit/Heart of the Law takes precedence above the Letter of the Law; and it is Compassion, Forgiveness and Love that will bring peace. There must be a willingness for ALL to bend for genuine meeting. Reason, intellectual discourse, will not bring change. Any words left unsaid after 30 years´ dialogue? Do these Anglo-Catholics really believe that they can sway the Magisterium to grant their wishes as they are used to with Canterbury? I believe however that change will come, suddenly, without warning!<br /><br />It is difficult to understand that the Theotokos, Our Holy Mother, venerated as Co-Redemptrix and Mediatrix, was born a woman yet women cannot be ordained or consecrated and must remain forever excluded from earthly altars!<br /><br />Perhaps the dialogue should be kept open since only 5 votes carried this particular section in the General Synod debates? But if with all good will, discussions and negotiations prove futile,then those whose conscience (compromised by family or other restraints) dictates that their path lies in a move to Rome, then to Rome they should go. If the Church is built on sure Foundations, She will survive!<br /><br />I continue to pray for strength and guidance of the Holy Spirit for our Archbishops Rowan and John.<br /><br />Hyacinth (Vienna)<br />Written on the Feast of the AssumptionAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-874580216515087471.post-82592674077032658482010-08-15T10:20:02.287+01:002010-08-15T10:20:02.287+01:00While I understand very well the anxities of thse ...While I understand very well the anxities of thse who oppose women to be bishps I cannot be silent of making few comments.<br /><br />There _are_ already churches with women bishops, which are part of one, holy, catholic and apostolic Church; some of wich the CofE is in full communion. Ie some Churches of Porvoo Communion finds it difficult that Church of England has "difficulties" with women in episcopate. And these Churches are in good terms with the RC - if this is a worry.<br />But it is troubling that in this letter these bishops have stated that some of them have already decided to go. Are we not to be loyal to decisions made in the Church?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-874580216515087471.post-22682879524612116422010-08-12T10:33:41.726+01:002010-08-12T10:33:41.726+01:00Regarding opposition to this letter -
I find it q...Regarding opposition to this letter -<br /><br />I find it quite ridiculous that anyone would claim a "Catholic identity" (it seems to me an oxymoron in itself, as Catholicism should not be a part of "identity politics") and wish for the Anglo-Catholics to be removed from our church. We Anglicans, however, are prone to the ridiculous and the traitorous - as we have such a weak notion of fidelity.<br /><br />We should be trying to convince Anglo-Catholics with reason and with the faithful ministry of our women in ministry, rather than forcing them out of the Church and denying them new ordinations, as we have been doing. They are still in the church, and this means something; and we have the tendency to sling mud upon them, ignore their words, and paint them with nasty motives which they clearly don't have.<br /><br />With WATCH quoting Spong, I wonder about the sanity and education level of our whole Church. If we haven't convinced the Anglo-Catholics yet, perhaps it's because, in general, we Anglicans are a rather backward, bigoted and theologically uninformed lot who mostly create our "identity" by spitting on Catholics and people of other churches? Perhaps if we brought our general education level up to a fraction of that of our Catholic or Baptist bretheren we would be able to achieve our goals without tearing ourselves apart?<br /><br />So I am quite happy that Bishop Rowell signed it.Jamesnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-874580216515087471.post-88250987066363760182010-08-12T02:00:10.828+01:002010-08-12T02:00:10.828+01:00It puzzles me that so many in our church are so en...It puzzles me that so many in our church are so enthusiastic about the prospect of women bishops.<br /><br />What of the thought that, affirming our women priests, we do better to remain without women bishops so as to remain closer to Rome and the Eastern Orthodox? In consecrating female bishops, we go much further in burning our bridges with them than by simply ordaining female priests. Without such bridges, the churches of Rome and of the East will be in even more diminished fellowship with ourselves than is now the case; and we will have less opportunity to share in ministry, and in our separate understandings of womens' ministry. The prospect of female bishops in the (universal) Church Catholic becomes further removed by our overstepping the boundaries of propriety, and isolating ourselves too profoundly, when we ordain them too soon - before these other churches have understood the same message as we about God's will for women priests.<br /><br />I would think that even staunch supporters of the notion of women bishops in the church Catholic would see this logic, and affirm that for ourselves, the time for women bishops has not yet come; as we wish also to share with our Catholic and Orthodox brothers and sisters with the hope that they may also, some day, enjoy fully ordained womens' ministry.<br /><br />I fear that we frequently come across as picturing all those who do not yet embrace fully ordained womens' ministry as bigots and offenders of civil rights. With the current animosity toward Anglo-Catholics (i.e., those with some basic respect for Rome), Catholics, and others who do not agree with womens' ordination - as well as the many misunderstandings regarding such persons, and of the issue of womens' ordination (confusing it as a civil right, and evoking the business / managerial world metaphor of the "glass ceiling"), have we not all the more reason to refrain from ordaining female bishops for the time being, as counter-cultural and liberally minded persons insisting on justice and proper understanding for all? Otherwise, we risk affirming the consecrations of women for the wrong reasons, and without truly understanding bishops, and women bishops. And we will look upon our women bishops more as evidence of civil rights progress rather than as those upon whom the duties of the apostolate have been bestowed.<br /><br />James Coder, laypersonJamesnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-874580216515087471.post-87324314727451401982010-08-07T13:47:46.985+01:002010-08-07T13:47:46.985+01:00"The faith once delivered"? In the "..."The faith once delivered"? In the "Ordinariate? Who do you think you are kidding dear Sirs? We, with our women, are completely part of the One Holy Catholic Church whether the Roman papacy can cope with women or not. I am surprised that men, avowed to the Church, would append signatures to such an extremist position, not to mention their questionable application of a text from Holy Scripture. Canon Ian SherwoodAnglicans Istanbul (C of E)https://www.blogger.com/profile/11555167911504359495noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-874580216515087471.post-65693679836595556452010-08-06T12:23:13.578+01:002010-08-06T12:23:13.578+01:00Can I be alone in being surprised and disappointed...Can I be alone in being surprised and disappointed that this post has attracted no comments from any of the priests in the diocese Bishop Geoffrey is under canonical obedinece to serve? Are we really so fearful?<br /><br />I for one wish to react. There is much I might say, but I shall confine myself to the following.<br /><br />I am a Catholic Anglican, and have been all my life. I am weary of the protestations of those who would likewise claim the label. Many of us remain firmly committed to the apostolicity and catholicity of the Church of England, but are no less firm in our support for the ordination of women, and no amount of snide comments behind our backs about us not being 'real' Catholics will undermine our identity. It is a sad truth that the group that is behaving in the most protestant way - and has been for years - is the group who claim to be 'traditionalists' - another misappropriated term.<br /><br />Secondly, our bishop must ask himself how he can with integrity serve us when he has so clearly declared a position that raises fundamental questions about his commitment to us. I am deeply offended that he should append his signature to a pastoral letter to a clerical faction before he might think about addressing the clergy of his own diocese.<br /><br />I have no qualms about stating this. If others are fearful, what does it say about our diocese? If anyone remains fearful but wishes to discuss this, please feel free to email me: chaplain@anglican.fiRupert Moretonhttp://www.anglican.finoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-874580216515087471.post-70817046537155860212010-08-06T08:54:16.696+01:002010-08-06T08:54:16.696+01:00Interesting letter, and certainly food for debate....Interesting letter, and certainly food for debate. Would it be possible to receive the resolutions and reports that are referred to in the letter so that the parishes can have an informed debate? Perhaps they could be posted on the Eurobishop's blog.Claudinehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16768484156771907009noreply@blogger.com